Tips for building interest during a track?

[nelposto]

Hi all,

Hope this isn't too basic of a question but thought I'd try to get some discussion happening around the production side of things.

I'm pretty new to it all (but learning fast, I hope!) and one area I'm frequently getting stuck in is effectively building and maintaining 'interest' over the life of a track. I'll get a basic hook happening that I like and start to flesh the track out but often struggle with where to take things 30s/1min after the first drop.

The obvious thing I try is introducing new percussion, or supporting melodies around the main line, but often i find the additional sounds don't fit and end up binning them. I've found that introducing the new elements subtlely before bringing them in completely (eg a reverse reverb woosh) can make things feel like they fit a little better which makes me think that transitions between sections are pretty important too.

So I'll open to the floor, what tips or advice do you have for building interest in a track? is there anything I'm missing or is it just a case of trial and error working to find the sounds that build and play nicely?

[River]

I find this hard to, something I'm still learning and getting the knack for, but this is what I've learned so far.

1) Start with looong loops. I actually have projects saved as 'longerloops1'! If your main hook/loop is at 4 or 8 beats when you start trying to arrange it can give you problems, try and make the main 'groove' of the track 16 or 32 beats long to start with. Even if its an 8beat main drum groove with other loops empty expect for a few fill/hits on 16th and 32nd beats.

The way I look at it, a 4 beat loop will get borring 4 times quicker than a 16 beat loop.

2) Add 'stuff'. Adding a couple of synth stabs at the end of a 32bar loop, or in the arrangement every 32ndish beat can really help. A lot of tracks do this, even if its subtle it keeps it interesting and it gives people something to listen out for and anticipate.

3) Automation! Automation is your friend. Even very subtle rises in a bassline filter freq over 32 beats then, drop it back down again and rise it again keep it interesting. Automate effects as well, reverbs, delays etc.

4) Grab your main loop or a percussion line and throw it into a load of effects, screw it up, record the output and listen back. Use bits of it mangled audio to insert into the original as fills/drops etc. Doesn't have to be much, take the kick out and replace the original line with mangled line on beats 2 and 4 and leave 1/3 standard, stuff like that.


5)... this is where it gets hard. Your producing it, sat in a studio, listening to it for hours, and hours, and hours. It'll be heard without the first or last minute, in a big busy club, with lights and lots of booze involved.

Sometimes, I think you can be to afraid of just letting a track groove along for a bit. Whats dull to you after 3 hours of the same track over and over in a small room on your own might not be dull to people in a club.

Moreso, whats new and interesting to you after 4 hours alone listening to the same track, might well start sounding overly busy and complicated in a club.

Take time out and listen to other things (podcasts in general I just posted are my choice) then come back fresh. I've spent ages and edited the crap out of 2 mins of audio and then come back and replaced it with the original groove with a few small tweaks before now.

[JRHE]

Great Ideas River. I'm sure we will be seeing a bunch more of each other on this site, and I will definitely try some of them as soon as I get my computer back from the shop. I was DJing at this club and was splashed by some sort of cranberry drink, it went all over my computer. The worst thing about it was I was being nice and letting the club use my visualizer because their visual guy wasn't there that night. oh well

Happy Producing

[freshman]

Nice topic!
I think we can all agree that variation is the key to keep the listener to it.



1) Start with looong loops. ... try and make the main 'groove' of the track 16 or 32 beats long to start with. Even if its an 8beat main drum groove with other loops empty expect for a few fill/hits on 16th and 32nd beats.

This is a great idea.

You can do this with basically any instrument/track in your song, like FX too like you mentioned. Later on in the track you can sample, or repeat, parts from this bigger loop.
It's some sort of psychological trick i think, people are getting used to the longer loop, and it will be predictable.
Let's say the loop gets in someones subconsciousness.
Now if you sample or repeat bits from that loop, this predictability is broken, and you get the attention right back, the tune being back in someones consciousness.
These variations in pattern can be as subtle or as extensive as you want them to be.
Hope i don't overcomplicate the whole thing here ;)

[River]

JRHE, that sucks about the computer. I dont DJ anymore but I ran and played at a small night for a year or so up in Lancaster playing with Ableton, and I had some close shaves!


Another keep it intresting tip, and Yeah I've been doing this earlier myself, is to get up and dance around the studio to the track. You might look a bit of a tit, but I find it useful. Otherwise I end up so focused on the pretty lines on the screen and counting my beat/bar numbers I end up loosing the groove a bit.

[tomflynn]

There are so many ways to add interest to parts, a lot comes down to working hard and learning from experience, but a few things that i thought may help you would be :

Think about your idea for the track, where you want to take the listener, not just blindly adding parts for the sake of it.

Automation is a must to keep parts moving and to trick the ear. Anything from filter cutoffs to panning to some slight pitch mod via an lfo.

One of the best things for me personally is taking what you already have, putting it through an effects plugin e.g fast fx or dr device etc and then mixing that new mangled audio with the original sound, maybe sparingly, to create messed up wierdness here and there.

When you keep adding sounds you end up cluttering up the groove.

As i say, there are a million things, but those are the ones that popped into my head as i'm writing this.

Hope any of that helps.

Tom Flynn

[Kristoph]

Hi there

Some really good tips so far - I'd say personally the most important thing for adding interest, is not so much what you need to add, but putting serious thought into where you want to end up at the peak of the track... So when you're arranging, make sure everything builds up to that point - this may be a case of stripping back elements and building suspense, rather than adding on top of your main idea.

Like other posters have said, if you keep on adding stuff it can get cluttered - best to make sure you have a couple of variations of your groove, increasing in intensity, but all sounding phat - and use these to build your arrangement up to the peak, and then down again (maybe... some just keep on going up and up!)

Finally - Don't be afraid to break all the rules if it sounds good, just make sure it actually does sound good. (take a break and listen on fresh ears!)

[tomflynn]

Fresh ears is such a good point, the amount of times i thought 'wow' then listened back the next day and thought 'oh dear'.......

Like kristoph said - Most vital of all - the idea!

I have 4 things written down infront of me in my studio and i look at them everytime i make a track - they are -

What is your vision for the track?

What is your concept for the track?

How do you want people to feel when they listen to it?

How can i create that vision/concept with the equipment i have?

It's helped me a lot, hope it helps anyone else.

[Kristoph]

4 great tips - all that's written down infront of me on my displays is "SAVE" in massive text ;)

[tomflynn]

Put an 'L' in between the S and the A and you've got a quality record label :)

[dramirez]

Tomflynn - flattery will get you everywhere my friend -)

[tomflynn]

Haha true statement. Flattery will get you everywhere but battery will get you quirky ass drum sounds!

[ElectronicCulture]

River said some nice things, i like the part about stretching the track and the loops. Creating your own loops is very important as well, it will give you extra creativity along the track. I guess using high quality samples and instruments helps, it´s hard to make a crapy sample sound Good. Another thing i have been using , it´s nothing new but it´s great. Compression and sidechain compression, this gives a excellent form to your tracks.

[Wub]

If you've got a drum loop you're happy with, run it through a glitch effect like dbGlitch or SupaTrigga (both freeware) and bounce out the audio a few times. You'll have a bank of little fills that you can chop in and out at the end of bars/sections to create some variation.

[schott63]

yea everything you have said is very usefull and im goin to put this into practice asap thanx a lot